Curse

Anon-e-mouse · Mar 08, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

If you're really going to 'balance' PvE, by removing PvE skills I certainly hope your also advocating removing Monster skills, the LOLWTF uber damage, the 'enchanced' energy regen PvE foes have, the immunity to DP, etc, etc...

PvE was never meant to be 'balanced' No real reason to start now unless someone has an gigantic e-peen to wave.

drkn · Mar 08, 2010, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Balance isn't relevant in PvE because it isn't competitive.

sorry, pvp elitist, sir!
following you way of thinking, we may say that [x] doesn't require [y] because of [stupid reason]. just like pvp doesn't need any balance because much less people play pvp than pve.

just balance the classes in pve - give them their niches, make them competitive with each other rather than giving one class uber elites while another has just one useful build.

Gun Pierson · Mar 08, 2010, 11:51 AM // 11:51

People leave pvp formats when they're not balanced. Saw it happening in Dawn of war 2, while Starcraft is known for its balance and is still played because of that.

PvE is about fun things to do and enjoyable replayability. A certain balance has a role in that, but it's not as important as for example content to progress your characters to keep on playing for years. Content can come in a variety of ways. New explorable areas, new gear and items, new game mechanics etc.

Gift3d · Mar 08, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

if you run the right farming build you alone can take on 30+ monsters easily. that's not balanced.
your team of 8 is supposed to take on 30+ monsters in primary quests. that's not balanced.
monsters have monster skills and you have pve only skills. that's not balanced.

do i really need to go on, look at the larger picture here and you'll come to the end-all conclusion: guild wars is a pvp game and pve will never be balanced. EEEVERRRRR. learn to live with it because i feel sorry for anet for having to deal with you insatiable, jaded pvers and your whining.

drkn · Mar 08, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

the elitist pvpers overlook one thing: a big part of pve community has switched from 'balance the whole pve side' into 'balance the classes in pve'. classes can and should be balanced, both in pvp and pve. it doesn't involve talking about farming or speedclearing - not at the very primairy point.

Akaraxle · Mar 08, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Top Down, Spot On, Pinpoint, Sweep, Window Pane, Big Picture. How should PvE balance be oriented?

Common Sense.

Morphy · Mar 09, 2010, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sorry, pvp elitist, sir!
following you way of thinking, we may say that [x] doesn't require [y] because of [stupid reason]. just like pvp doesn't need any balance because much less people play pvp than pve.

just balance the classes in pve - give them their niches, make them competitive with each other rather than giving one class uber elites while another has just one useful build.

Balance is only relevant when using the most effective strategy is mandatory for succes. This isn't the case in PvE. With the exception of REALLY dumb stuff such as Warriors using meteor shower and the likes, anything works.

Besides, there are only three niches in PvE: nuking, tanking and rebarring. How do you want to spread these three niches across 10 (!) professions, which all have 4-5ish attributes? Hint: you can't.

This is already an extremely tough job even in PvP, where there is a thing called "utility" around. Interrupts, snares, shutdown, energy denial... These are all an important part of PvP gameplay and have no meaningful role in PvE.

A profession can be given this kind of utility in PvP, but in PvE it will just be a waste of space. And even in PvP, you can realistically only fill 6 professions. So how do you expect to fill 10, nay, even 4 professions in PvE that all have useful attributes that have a unique and useful impact on the gameplay?

Improvavel · Mar 09, 2010, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Balancing PvE would first require taking the really dumb things out of it: ditch PvE and monster skills, get rid of consumables, lower the levels of higher-end enemies, and ditching title effects just to name a few.

Then comes the tougher part: maintaining PvE to be challenging. This requires a re-work of nearly every single mob in the game. They need to have better synergy, they need to have team builds that actually make sense, and they'll need to be maintained (because skill balances affect everyone, monsters included. You certainly wouldn't run a skill that became useless through a nerf, so why would they?)

Then you get to worry about farming, how much of it you want, and so on and so forth. In a supposedly balanced game, should one character with one skill bar be able to take on several?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The purpose of "balance" is to provide incentive for a player to learn more about the game, to become a better player. If players are given the best of the best at the start - an example would be given every player Ursan (pre-nerf) at character creation - then there's next to no incentive. All the things they could learn take time to do so, and why take time learning when you can put that one skill on your skillbar and be almost just as successful?

Sorry mate but most people aren't interested in balancing the game - they are interested in balancing the players.

Balancing the players in a PvE environment will never happen, though, as the enemy is mindless AI .

Since it is mindless AI anything a human can use and do another human will be able to mimic .

If people were interested in having a balanced game, then the ideas you described seem sensible (and you know I agree with them).

Age · Mar 09, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

Are you really that stupid? It's a simulator, not a damn game.

There isn't an RTS Game doesn't get more challenging as you play through it? I have absolutely no idea what the hell that means. He knows what he's talking about, and you don't even have a clue what you're talking about. Please, for the sake of the forum, stop posting.

Nope and it is still game or it wouldn't be in the games section of every store.

I consider that remark a personal attack which is bannable.

That is right there IS NOT all depends on which game you are playing on my Star Trek Gaming servers they can be if you get drafter by seasoned veteran player.I am talking about StarFleet Command here one of the best RTS/Sims around which involves a great deal strategy as based on Naval Warfare in space.

I do know what I am talking about as being an Administrator of Star Trek Gamers the Oldest Independent fansite on the net.They don't have respect for other Admins here unlike The Guild Hall does.

Bryant Again · Mar 09, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sorry mate but most people aren't interested in balancing the game - they are interested in balancing the players.

Most players just want to hit things, this is the casual populace that all games make their money off of. As long as ANet is able to make the game engrossing for them in GW2 - which isn't too hard, really - then ANet can do whatever the hell they want for their endgame.

Improvavel · Mar 09, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Most players just want to hit things, this is the casual populace that all games make their money off of. As long as ANet is able to make the game engrossing for them in GW2 - which isn't too hard, really - then ANet can do whatever the hell they want for their endgame.

I think it is more "Most players just want to hit things and get the shiny loot".

All the loot.

qvtkc · Mar 09, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Balance is only relevant when using the most effective strategy is mandatory for succes. This isn't the case in PvE. With the exception of REALLY dumb stuff such as Warriors using meteor shower and the likes, anything works.

No, no, no. That's so incorrect, that I don't know where to begin. Really, it's all wrong in every way.

Warrior with Meteor Shower works in PvE.

PvE balance is easy btw, just make the stuff that's needed in PvP also be needed in PvE.

Bryant Again · Mar 09, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I think it is more "Most players just want to hit things and get the shiny loot".

All the loot.

Getting new gear or cool drops can indeed be fun, and a casual player is imo pretty likely to earn them casually.

Tenebrae · Mar 09, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Wanna talk about PvE balance ? ill telll you the truth , HM was a good idea but was poorly designed. PvE skills are a good idea but are poorly designed too , now with them some HM areas are easier but most of areas in NM are a joke.
Ofc the answer is "rework HM" but ... not gonna happen. My thoughts ? , i would add some stuff in HM like :
- Every mob gotta have at least 6 skills , one of them elite.
- Resistances : Mobs of X type or natural from Y zone have 1-3 inherent defensive buffs ( pasive , always on )
- Monster skills : Same as above , all should have 1-2 focused on attacks or foe party sync.
- Bosses : Should have 2 elites 6 regular skills and 3 specific buffs in total. Remove double damage and double cast , add 30% more HP and 3-6 levels.
For example stuff like that and ofc .... lower casting , movement and attack spd buff to 25% in HM. Its stupid that skills used to run from mobs to save time are useless just because that stupid nonsense buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

No, no, no. That's so incorrect, that I don't know where to begin. Really, it's all wrong in every way.

Warrior with Meteor Shower works in PvE.

PvE balance is easy btw, just make the stuff that's needed in PvP also be needed in PvE.

What the frak are you talking about ?

Amy Awien · Mar 09, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

What the frak are you talking about ?

Reworking PvE so that snares and interrupts become as useful in PvE as they are in PvP, although I don't see how that would be easy to do.

Deviant Angel · Mar 09, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

No, no, no. That's so incorrect, that I don't know where to begin. Really, it's all wrong in every way.

Warrior with Meteor Shower works in PvE.

PvE balance is easy btw, just make the stuff that's needed in PvP also be needed in PvE.

Just because you can, it doesn't mean you should.

Morphy · Mar 10, 2010, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

No, no, no. That's so incorrect, that I don't know where to begin. Really, it's all wrong in every way.

Warrior with Meteor Shower works in PvE.

PvE balance is easy btw, just make the stuff that's needed in PvP also be needed in PvE.

That requires changing the monsters which is pretty much changing the game. That's in no way easy to do. Other than that, it has really little to do with balancing skills in PvE.

R_Frost · Mar 11, 2010, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Wanna talk about PvE balance ? ill telll you the truth , HM was a good idea but was poorly designed. PvE skills are a good idea but are poorly designed too , now with them some HM areas are easier but most of areas in NM are a joke.
Ofc the answer is "rework HM" but ... not gonna happen.

bingo............HM is fun for what it is, gave everyone a bit of a challenge once they got done with all of NM. PvE skills wouldnt of been needed had HM been better designed or re-worked to fix issues that existed. DoA was poorly designed. for a so called elite area, the party size should of been compareable to the Deep and Urgoz, which both areas easier to complete then DoA. envronmental effects and overpowered, unbalanced mobs was a cheep way out to make an elite area that wasnt ready when the game was released. con sets wouldnt of been needed either to deal with certain HM areas with a better design

PvE/PvP skill split should of happened after factions release. skill balances would of been easier and PvP wouldnt of turned out to be what it is today. Anet could almost un-do all balances and start from scratch but we know that wont happen. other game changes could be un-done too if enemy mobs were reworked. add a little randomization to them. give them a basic make up of tank,midline and healer, where the midline was really random in what spawned. then give the AI 3 or 4 different skill bars they could spawn with. that would of done alot for dealling with gimic builds and solo farming that was attempted to be delt with when they tried to deal with the farming bots.

i can keep going on other stuff but in the last year or 2 ive come to look at GW as Anet's open beta test for trying out what will or will not work or be passed onto GW2. im sure they realize one huge mistake, tooo many skills and tooo many professions availible in GW1

snaek · Mar 11, 2010, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by gun pierson

PvE is about fun things to do and enjoyable replayability. A certain balance has a role in that, but it's not as important as for example content to progress your characters to keep on playing for years.

new content isn't replayability because your playing something new, not re-playing something old. for a game that isn't really dishing out a whole lot of new content (unlike a game such as wow), i would think you are underestimating balance.

replay value comes in 2 forms mostly:
1) enjoyment - lets face it, if something is not balanced, its not as fun.
2) reward - has nothing to do about gameplay, rather simply acts as an incentive to play.

i think it's pretty obvious which route anet took in trying to get people to continue playing their game.

qvtkc · Mar 11, 2010, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

That requires changing the monsters which is pretty much changing the game. That's in no way easy to do. Other than that, it has really little to do with balancing skills in PvE.

You are asking for a solution that doesn't exist. PvE can't be "fixed" by just changing a few values here and there, because some clever chap will always figure out how to abuse the stupid AI.

Think of it. Many great PvP builds are completely useless for PvE. In fact many individual skills that are great in PvP are useless in PvE. So PvE builds are often boring or very bad (but they still work since PvE is so easy). Just cranking up the difficulty by messing around with numbers or removing certain tanking skills (Shadow Form etc) just removes the "very bad" builds and leave the boring ones (and admittedly some fun ones but speaking in general here, compared to PvP).

Solution? Well split PvP and PvE skills, and make extra skills for PvE only. That's what was done but it still leaves a whole lot of unused nice stuff that's only worth using in PvP, and also makes PvE way too easy.